Wider Tech Discussions: AppleVis Forums Expand Beyond Apple

For years now, we've had the situation where Windows users haunt the AppleVis forums simply because they've got iPhones. This change simply acknowledges our real-world multi-gadget existence. Go AppleVis!

I would hate to see all the hard work applevis did to get apple to listen to our feedback and that no longer be as relevant.

It does seem as though some people might have misunderstood the point I was making earlier or, alternatively, put it down to whinging about something new. To be honest, I can't understand either characterisation of what I was saying. I certainly wasn't whinging - in fact, my contribution was relatively light on emotion, I thought. Nor was this about what I want to read and don't want to read. Rather, as Dennis says, this is about the overall strategy being tried here. On reflection, maybe I should have said dilution of focus and dilution of influence. Either way, I'm doubling down on my view. Had I been a decisionmaker in this regard, I would have voted against it. Of that much, I'm virtually certain. It's a difficult decision but I hope when the findings of the pilot are considered there will be a serious thought or two about the medium- to long-term outlook. Feedback can be a false friend - it's a piece of evidence, but only a piece.

I completely agree with Bingo Little This site has worked to be a site where not only users but apple has looked to see what users are sgruggling with. I to would've voted this down if I had a vote. Now I would have no problem with separate sites.

Are we ghosts or something, or are iPhones not Apple products and we occupy this forum illegitimately? What on earth are the moderators doing then? Why is the iPhone listed among Apple products on AppleVis? Is it me or iPhone users, or the moderators responsible for that in that case? What is wrong with having an iPhone and not having an Apple Watch, an iPad, a Macbook or an Apple TV? I confidently assert that I have contributed to this website and community far more than many, and especially those doing nothing but telling those posting about bugs to either suck it up or go switch to Android, while they either don't care or don't know enough about the bugs mentioned.

@eens I don't understand your comment, I just checked, the Iphone link is still there.

This is just another heading, if you don't want to use it, don't. Just press 2 and post there.

I can see why people gravitate toward this site for apple things. iPad, iphone, watch, etc. Just of note, no one needs anything but an Apple anything, to glean something out of this site. No one needs every product Apple sells. However i'm hoping that because windows is a mainstream use case of most of this community and the world as a whole, Apple will notice more bugs as the Mac seems to get the raw deal. Lotte, the Mac is a pain in the butt, however I don't discourage anyone from trying it. I admit frustration boils over when someone either goes back to a platform they know because the Mac is to "hard" or, they bash what either is not known or is unable to be done by the end user. Personally, the Mac is not well represented on this site in quite a few aspects. besides more applications, there is a whole other avenue of downloading and safely installing an app. However this has not been covered and concerns make me consider if it will be at all. This is not my area of expertise.. Though if I had equipment I'd feel comfortable using, I'd hope to assuage much of the fear of installing apps that Apple has not put on their store. The bottom line is podcasts need to be done except a lot of people seem to just hold a phone toward a mic and of course the Mac wouldn't be able to be done well without a mixer. I'm not blind, no pun intended, to the fact this setup is not cheat but expensive everyone would not be able to afford it. It's just a bit disheartening to have the same podcasts without not only new contributors, also new ways of even things like navigation on an iPad or Mac, such as group navigation verses flat navigation. Perhaps I'm asking for a lot. If I am, and can figure how recording could be done I'd be delighted to record podcasts. This is not an option unless I look further into this. I'm sure there is an expense which I'd have to justify. Whatever happens, let's hope we all get something out of these new subcategories.

Maybe the Mac is not because there are more people who use iPhone and window PC? Love my iPhone and have an iPad but use windows.

You're right that more people use Windows then use a Mac. However if this was a truly "Apple" site, and i say that with no distain, the Mac should be covered a bit more. It does make a bit sense that windows needs to be authenticated and Android and even Linyx. Can not spell that. :)

I know many people who are using Mac without a problem. One of my blind friends is studying music in the university with it without a problem. I finished high school and studied natural medicine in an online USA college using 2015 MacBook Air and I didn’t have any issues. Now I got M3 MacBook Air and everything works well. Safari works smoothly.
I used Windows before school and I tried to start studying in high school with Windows but it was horrible. It was the reason why I used braille machine until high school. Then I got a Mac and changing from braille to technology was quite easy.

Hi,
For those who don't agree, think about this:
There is nowhere, and I mean nowhere to adequately discuss and learn more about Windows from a blind perspective online. There are no forums apart from the off topic room on audiogames.net. Even there it's full of politics and religion which I don't want to have to wade through to find what I want. If there are other forums, then they're not showing up in google searches, and I do know how to use Google, I search for stuff all the time and find exactly what I need a lot of the time. Facebook groups, mailing lists, X, Discord servers, podcasts, blind Reddit and Reddit in general, just don't cut it as far as I'm concerned. Podcasts because you have to possibly wade through banter and stuff that isn't related to Windows to get what you want, mailing lists because I don't want to read through long digests or get hundreds of emails a day to my inbox, Discord servers because I just prefer to read stuff, X is a joke, and Facebook groups just annoy me. Facebook just drives me mad in general. There are some very good tutorials, and manuals for stuff, but they're just that, tutorials and manuals. I seriously considered starting up my own website for Windows stuff, I've got an account on a shared hosting platform, and I'm doing my own website from time to time, so why not pay for another domain name. But recent events with my own website have demonstrated I haven't got the technical knowhow to do this. It's fine screwing up my own website, but it's not OK to create a Windows equivalent to applevis, and then not know how to resolve a serious technical issue, take it down, then start again and change hosting providers. A user on this website did try and create something a few years ago for Windows, but it really wasn't a nice accessible experience. This Applevis website is just lovely, if I can use that word. Maybe it's created using WordPress, which is what I would use if I were to create a Windows equivalent. The layout, clear heading structure and link labelling is just perfect. I was creating something a bit like this for my own site using WordPress. Sub-domains are all very well, but that would create an incredible amount of additional work. The Applevis framework is already here, so why not just add to that. I'm not trying to change people's opinions, I understand the concerns about a lack of moderation and a dilution of focus, but provided the name doesn't change I don't think that will happen. Speaking as a consumer myself, there's a lot in a name. I've previously respected a product, and then ridiculed something because of a name change. I know you're not looking for moderators, but I would like to offer my services for the future because I want this to work.

We've allegedly been haunting this forum just because we have iPhones and nothing else. That's all. Nothing to get confused about.

There are a lot of windows users true, but there are at least 5 or more mac users,, nah, I'm sure there's more than that.

Anyway, I'm just going to enjoy the extras and leave others to argue over what's right and what isn't. I have better things to do.

@Ollie, not calling you out, however, "I don't". What does that mean? You left the same subject and comment so how can we help with such little information? I understand people can be frustrated I'm just confused on what, "I don't, means.

I appreciate you clearing this up. Do you see how one line of something can get someone confused who skimmed something as they were multi-tasking? :)

Personally I love this idea of having other topics on here like windows. I have a bunch of Apple stuff but I also use windows and I love how this site is easy to understand and get around. Adding those forums and topics makes this even better.

In 2015, I went totally blind. I had access to Apple products and Windows products and android products at that time. This website was a saving grace for me in that it allowed me an easy entry into the Apple products I was currently using. Fast forward to today March 22, 2024, I recently started a new job as a Vision Services assistant with a local school district. Where I provide technical assistance on various devices and platforms for students, ranging from kindergarten to high school. Who have blindness or low vision. This website and its forums have provided me an education that I have parlayed into gainful employment. I welcome the changes that are proposed, and I look forward to learning more about other platforms that I can show to other people who have blindness or low vision. The feedback that I would like to offer is to have either the subdomain system, which was mentioned earlier or different tabs for the different platforms. I am constantly referring people to this website for help with their Apple products, I look forward to the day, where I can send anybody with any product be at Apple, windows, android to one website where they can get useful and relevant information to help them out!
Thank you all for the hard work that you’ve put into the site over the years!

TLDR: This isn't enough.
Hello,
I would first like to start off by saying that I am glad that this action is being taken. It not only allows other voices to be heard, but opens up the ability to bring forth these discussions without treading on thin ice.
I will, however, say this. Unlike some individuals in this topic who are not happy that the change exists, I am not really sure if I am happy about the significance of the change in general.
Now what exactly do I mean by this?
Let us first start off by quoting from the actual post, which should help understand my point of view.
"Our goal is to thoughtfully broaden AppleVis's scope to meet more needs for our community, while maintaining its foundation as a productive, trustworthy space focused on Apple accessibility."
While I understand that the core of this website is solely based on Apple and Apple alone, I will come forth and say that AppleVis is falling behind the times. This isn't just about Apple anymore. This is about the independence of the blind and visually impaired and their use of assistive technology/screen readers on various operating systems, something I think is being overlooked simply by a logo that reads Apple Incorporated. The time of Apple being the majority in the ecosystem is mostly behind us.
If I were to use an analogy, it is like a turtle that is only a quarter of the way out of its shell. AppleVis has existed for 13+ years, but I believe that it has become so Apple-based, we are failing to realize that people need a place to connect not only on an Apple level, but also on other levels. Windows, Linux, Android, even notetakers. We need to merge the community so that it is one unit, and not multiple individuals scattered everywhere.
And yet, the attachment to Apple is preventing this site from moving forward into a place where one could be at home and free to discuss their own devices, without any boundaries. Not only is the accessibility of this site incredible, but it fosters a community, all who use their own devices of choice. Whether it be Apple, Android, Windows, and plenty of others, everyone is assembled here.
But what do they have to talk about? Apple products. They cannot bring up their nice Samsung tablet they bought the day before, or their brand new Windows laptop. Why? Because Apple is the focus, and that's what causes the site to have a limited community.
While I understand that moderation is tight, and the forum is trying to be kept as tidy as possible, I don't think the community will expand as long as this site is Apple-bound. The continuity of the site being Apple-based is preventing voices that could be heard, from being heard.
With all of that being said, I think AppleVis is slowly but surely losing ground. Companies are being assembled, and with that assembly comes new technology and/or software. With new technology and/or software, there's something new to explore and uncover.
I say, out of the window to the apple core. Create a brand new core, because this core is getting old. See what I did there?
Anyways, that's my take on this whole thing.
I hope that this is concise, and brings forth my thought process.
Warm regards.

@tumni13 I understand your points. Isn't that why the Windows, android, and other home technology categories now exist though? So you can talk about your new laptop, or smart display or even the tablet? Or am I missing anything off your opinion. As for Apple being behind the times, I can understand that as now, Apple has really fallen down the hole of accessibility owing to so much work put into every system they release having a core value. I am hoping IOS18 and more intelligent ideas and projects come down the pipeline. I meant core value as the most basic accessibility standards are met without any expansion. Let's see what AI and other features appear at WWDC.

AppleVis did it, It would had been nice if they ask our thoughts but is done. Now we just need to move on. Those who will use windows will use the links and ask for help. Same for android. Those of us who use iPhone or iPad will focus on that. Our dadd AppleVis did not consult us and is not good. However as I state, is done. Keep warm all. It is cold in Chicago.

I love this site and am very interested to see where this goes.

It's been a recurring theme on here for a long time "I don't have that problem on Windows" in every bug-ridden Mac thread. And it's always been a pretty unhelpful thing to read as it's quite dismissive. However, now I feel there is a way to turn this into something more constructive. I've been struggling to crack Windows and think this move by Applevis could be very helpful. I also struggle to find and gel with communities so being able to do it here in a friendly and comfortable environment is great.

Plus I have my "doesn't do that on the Mac" comment all primed and ready.

This has been my most visited site for a while now and I'm really happy to have another reason to keep coming back. Please keep up the good work and thank you for everything you do.

I genuinely wish there were different skill level categories. So that people could choose who they’re interacting with. My biggest issue is that so many people have almost no concept of how to use their devices and they are run by their emotions.

I know that if we based things on skill level, I will probably be talking to maybe three or four other people on this website. And I’m OK with that. Like I said, I believe it would be beneficial to just have the option. Maybe there could be some kind of basic test People could take to assess their overall skill level. Raging from novice to Highly experienced. That way people can be encouraged to try to improve their skills if they want to interact with the more experienced users. And the more experienced users can simply choose to provide help if that’s what they want to do. I personally have nothing against anybody on this website. And jumbling everything up and making everybody have to address everybody else’s issues can be tedious. It’s interesting when somebody doesn’t know how to turn off their Bluetooth devices to get their keyboard back. It’s interesting when they don’t realize that resetting their settings can solve certain issues. It’s interesting when they barely comprehend how to turn off their phone and turn it back on. It’s also fascinating to me that people will literally hang onto an app that has died. It hasn’t been updated in like six years and they are raging about how unfair it is. Especially when there are newer apps that do 10 times more than the one they want to hold onto. Again, I have no problem with people asking for help. I’m just in a different place and I’d like to interact with people who are on that level with me.

I genuinely believe that it’s great to have android users and windows users on the website. Admittedly, I would be incredibly unders skilled as an android user. And I look forward to learning about all the different things that would be available. Having this could encourage people to take a chance on something like android. It could similarly encourage people to jump to windows. Again, I do believe that there should be some kind of filter that could be turned on and turned off. Because we should have the choice to interact with who he would like to interact with. It only benefits us to learn.

Yes we should definitely have an intelligence test on here and anyone who gets a low score should walk around with a giant cap on there head with a big D on it. The other members of the community should then be encouraged to throw virtual eggs at them.

I'm definitely in favour of this and will order one of those giant baseball hand glove things fro Amazon. Shouldn't take long before I can make a good omelette.

Ashrine, I agree that there should be some filtering out if you so choose. However, let me rat myself out here. I was booking a stay on the Marriott app. I couldn't select the book tab, and the adjustable pickers if you wanna call them that weren't working. True Irish fashion, I blame the app and put up a comment about accessibility being broken in the latest update. Then I decide to turn off and back on the phone. Shock of all shocks, everything now works perfectly. I could have left my comment alone and gotten the ever so helpful "I don't have that problem" type of comment. Yet I admitted my wrong doing and edited my comment as to say that it does now indeed work. At least I took the blame right? :) There's all kinds of ways to figure out if something is either your own fault, or the operating system's. I usually blame myself first. Gotta keep my Irish temper in check after all. Lol

That's certainly a more sensible suggestion, although I do struggle to see how this would benefit Applevis. I don't use reddit, but I do use Stack Overflow, and it is useful that it can sort answers by score and by whether they are marked as the accepted answer. But Applevis isn't really a Q&A site so I'm not entirely sure what advantage it would bring? Am I missing something? Or is it just the warm fuzzy feeling you get if someone likes your post?

What benefit do you think it would have?

The benefit as I see it, is a better understanding of a problem. Quite often, you find posts with a question in the comment of something such as, is cellular connection, accessible for example. Note this is a made up app. That's the only information you are given. If the app is free, it boggles my brain why someone doesn't download the app on their own, basing it on their own accessibility needs. what I find accessible, you may not and vice versa. I can't answer if something's accessible because I am not you. I have made a conscious effort to critique my own spelling before sending and little errors no one catches can drive me up the wall. As I said, I am not perfect I just try to help. also language barriers can make it harder to identify someone's problem. besides the accessible app questions we often get asked if someone has an issue and the person does not give out their phone model or even whether or not they are on a beta cycle of an IOS or Mac OS. This again makes this more difficult to help the person. If I were needing help from a more advanced user, or helping someone it would make sure I could get what i needed instead of well meaning answers like "I run the same phone, I don't have that problem." Hope I have made some sense.

I genuinely don't know whether to laugh or cry. But I think I will put down my stick and stop poking, tempting though it is.

at Siobhan, you say, 'I can't answer if something's accessible', but to a certain extent you can, and so can everybody else. If you don't have to use screen recognition, you can activate all buttons by double tapping on them, all buttons are clearly labelled so the user understands their function with no ambiguity, the app doesn't have hundreds of buttons and tabs to navigate through, then you could argue that an app conforms to certain accessibility guidelines and therefore is accessible. In other words, you can learn the app quickly, and could very quickly use the app as efficiently and effortlessly as a sighted user. I'm sure we can all agree on the fact that if a button or buttons can't be activated by a VoiceOver user, and buttons aren't clearly labelled if at all, that entire app or parts of that app are inaccessible. The murkier issues come if an app can be used with VoiceOver by deploying screen recognition, having to use explore by touch to find things on the screen, and there is so much clutter and mess that a VoiceOver user will likely perform tasks slower with the app than the average sighted user until they get used to the app and its layout. An app might be usable with VoiceOver, but whether tasks can be performed quickly and efficiently is another matter. The legal definition of 'accessible' is another whole debate and probably goes well beyond the scope of this website so I'll just leave it there. What I'm trying to say is, you can probably help someone more than you think. I don't want a system here where everybody is sorted by ability levels. If people don't like a post, they can just ignore it. Asking whether an app is accessible and whether it meets the most fundamental accessibility guidelines isn't unreasonable I think. But maybe an even better question would be to describe the task you want to do and to ask whether there's an app for it. You could potentially download hundreds of apps for something before you find something that's VoiceOver compliant, so asking here is acceptable I think.

Like I said, most of the people on this website are run by their emotions. They can’t take any feedback. They can’t handle the idea that someone knows more than them. They can’t deal with the idea that They might be responsible for the things that are causing them grief. I just as much interact with the ones that are thoughtful, engaged, and look at things from every angle.

I’m always glad to hear your thoughts and your feedback. We haven’t always been on the same page about things. And I’ve always valued everything you’ve had to write. You’ve actually taught me some things. And I’m always noticed that you take the time to take feedback, make edits. You are always trying to learn and improve your experience and how you approach things. Please keep up the good work.

I think the site serves a few purposes. It is a great place to get answers to questions and I have always appreciated the patience I've been given and the friendly nature of the replies. No one has ever told me that I was being an idiot when I often was being exactly that. It's hard having to re-learn your life when you become disabled and the reason I love this site so much is that I felt I could ask anything without judgment. So introducing a system of judgment here really doesn't sit well with me.

But I think it's also a great place to just share our experiences. The Celeste glasses thread is great, I enjoy all the discussions and posts around new apps or other things going on. I find out about plenty of things on here that I never would otherwise. And because of my previous experiences I feel I can be part of the discussion without someone feeling I'm too ignorant to take part.

It's also a place we can go on and find out how badly Apple have broken the latest OS. Where else would we get this information?

And yes it is also a place to vent sometimes because being blind isn't easy and the world often seems not to be in tune with our problems. So having a place to talk this through with others means I don't bottle it up and feel that I have to deal with it all on my own.

There are some moments where I think some comments can be a little unnecessarily negative or dismissive, but there's usually reasons for these things. For example, yet another sighted person coming along with the answer to a problem they don't know we have can feel a bit grating, but that doesn't mean good can't come out of it so I'd prefer it if we could all keep an open mind.

But this is a community and it would be weird if we agreed with every single thing that anyone else wrote on here.

So the whole point is to be able to get away from bullies. And I would say many people on this website can be bullies. I have no problem with somebody disagreeing with me. I do have a problem with somebody hammering me for days on end because I have an opinion they don’t like. This is not a community. The community actually would work together. Deaf people have a pretty good community. People in wheelchairs have a great community. The blind are not known for having a community. We’re all fragmented and fractured with different ideas. People get yelled at For using a guide dog instead of a white cane. People get put down for marrying a sightedperson instead of another blind person. Other community support each other, no matter what. This supposed community calls other people stupid and calls their ideas Stupid for having an idea. I have no sense of camaraderie when I come on this website or when I interact with most other blind people. As a whole, I stay away from blind people. I help those that I can and I don’t make anyone take responsibility for my pain.

In other communities, people don’t make bullying jokes about somebody’s idea. They don’t get sarcastic or snarky or get passive aggressive. Even if they disagree, they’ll say it’s an interesting idea and it’s worth thinking about even if I don’t specifically want myself. They don’t get defensive when the administrators of the website say let’s include other platforms on this website.

I want a filter because there are definitely people I have tried multiple years to interact positively with and I’ve gotten slapped in the face over and over again. I wanna speak to people that I actually have a sense of connection with. I want to learn. I want worthwhile discourse. I don’t want a person who has no idea how to turn on their phone the scream at the top of their lungs that they are facing a bug and apple doesn’t care and blah blah blah blah blah. If others want to, I have no problem with that. I’m sure that’s a worthwhile venture. I’d like to choose who I associate with just like in real life. I don’t see people as less than or worthless or not having something to offer. Everyone has something to offer and everybody is worth something. What I do for a living is based on caring about other people. And I like to have boundaries and limits. This website tends to be a freefall. It’s not A problem that everyone gets the opportunity to post. I welcome that. And I’d also welcome the ability to filter out what I don’t want to read and have the ability for everybody to choose who they want to interact with.

Just because we are blind does not mean we are a community. That would be saying cats are a community. Just because they are cats. We have different values, morals, views in life and prospective about our world. Some of us were sighted and have that sighted mentality compare to those who were born blind. Thanks.

I’m always open to meeting people and connecting and building a bond of communication.

If you carry around the word "disabled" in your arsenal, let me bull's eye on the first shot. In other words BullS****Don't ever, say anything like that again. I'm not disabled, differently abled, none of that hell. I'd swear but the moderators' won't agree with my Irish world. Ashrine, thank you. If I disagreed with what you have written, I'll blame 90% on how it was written 10% on you. I'm like that. :) No honestly dude, we're on the same page. If I ever disagree or you do, please contact me off here so I can debate a point or you can if I am confused. BTW the 90% is what you have written as a whole. In other words, I'm joking with you on what you've written I didn't or you didn't agree with. :)If anyone has a comment mail me off here. Don't ask me to be a better person. what ya get is what ya get. :) Not like? Don't follow Irish_storm unless you want stuff you can't handle. ever. :)

Please do not ever change.

My vision is my business. I'll marry someone sighted, because I grew up as such. Enough of this topic on this discussion forum. My user name is available on most platforms. FB is different contact me off here. BTW, I mean the sighted verses blind debate.

The blind community has been divided for as long as I can remember. I used to hang out at a community before social media became dominant. It was known simply as The Zone. As social media grew, that place closed down, and people drifted apart. Other online communities like Klango and Vorail came and went; I believe Vorail is still active. However, they all had what many of us refer to as "Blind Drama." This drama is common because not everyone shares the same opinions, which keeps things interesting. Personally, I don't post much on forums unless I can offer help. I usually prefer to observe and enjoy the interactions without getting too involved.

OK this is all going in a weird and uncomfortable direction.

I guess we maybe have different definitions of community. I don't really see thst as a place where everyone comes along with the same opinion and gets on great. I think I'd call that a cult.

If a load of cats get together in a field to talk about the best way to use their litter trays, I would call that a community even if all they do is rabbit kick each other in the face whilst spitting and hissing.

We are all here because we need assistive tech and either are interested in or just have a need for tech.

If people on here feel like they have been bullied then that makes me very sad to hear.

Let us please not call out ignorance as anything to be ashamed of and also let's not say this isn't a place to come if you are needing to be educated because it's a great resource for that.

But maybe we are talking about what you do with that ignorance - there's no need for anyone on here to be confrontational or rude to others here.

We can complain about the blind community being this and that. WE can say it's not a community at all. Or whatever, but we all have a small part to play in that. We can't find intolerance with more intolerance.

I'm not intending this as a comment on anyone in particular as I don't really know where everyone is coming from. I said I wouldn't poke with my stick and maybe I'm doing that by posting here again.

At any rate I think we can maybe all agree that this topic is going off on a massive tangent. Please let us try to appreciate the work the people who run this forum put in and show them our support.

I have been blind ever since I was no older than a few days, so I am not a so-called privileged member of this so-called community from birth, yet I do see-I mean acknowledge the fact that we all have certain needs in common, but disability-based activism won't get us anywhere as it is the non-disabled thatt we are trying to communicate with, after all. I don't quite get why certain people consider blindness as part of what they call their identity, and are so sentimental. If one's identity should be defined as the sum of all the characteristics that defines a person and distinguishes him or her from others, it is all those characteristics as a whole that make you you. Why treat blindness separately then? We all have certain things like hair or eye color, hobbies and interests, sex, mother tongue and a bunch of other things that we share in common with so many blind and sighted people from all around the world, many of which are not even considered by most to be worth arguing about. If you treat a person differently just because (s)he is blond(e) or is taller than you or doesn't like action movies then this is problematic. These differences do mean something while discussing that particular topic but should otherwise be treated as but one of many traits that makes us both unique and alike, pretty much like our genetic material. And just as it is all the genetic material as a whole that make up your cells and mutations in a certain part of that material can have an impact on the entire cell, we should also consider our traits as things that are meaningful and can make up our identity only when treated as a whole. There are over three hundred million blind and visually-impaired individuals worldwide, but there is only one of each of us, just as is the case for each and every sighted person on earth. Many of these three hundred something million people have so many things that they have in common with each other and some of the remaining sighted population. Why is blindness alone considered to be a vital feature that makes certain individuals so unique? I'm afraid this has evolved from well-intentioned attempts to an unnecessary endeavor to be heard and and seen by everyone and attract everyone's attention by exploiting disabilities and certain other concepts, either deliberately or unknowingly. Oh, by the way, I had a question on my mind but then forgot to ask it: What about those becoming blind in adulthood, or what about those losing their sight over time? Do they suddenly or gradually become part of this so-called blind community? And what about those regaining sight? You know, this will likely be easier with all the technological advances. Are you just gonna excommunicate whoever becomes sighted (again)?

OK maybe we are talking about two different things here. I feel comfortable calling Applevis a community, whereas I would agree that saying there is a general blind community is a little bit more of a stretch.

But all the same, I think we are just arguing over semantics. Whether we think this or that is a community, or not, let's just try to be nice to each other even if sometimes it's not easy.

Oh boy, let me try and steer this another direction. Whether we like discussions of non apple products on a site called applevis seems rather beside the point to me, it's happening and will continue to happen. At the risk of being political we all know how Prohibition worked in early twentieth century America, banning the thing just made its distribution move underground and all of a sudden law enforcement, the metaphorical mods here, had even more problems on their hands with organized crime and such. People will talk about android and windows on applevis, it's been happening for years. It can be regulated and categorized or the mods can give themselves more work trying to ban every slightly off topic thing only to have 2 more off topic posts come up in its place, it seems to me those are the only choices unless you just want to be ineffective and ignore the issue entirely.

I think this is a great idea, and I'm glad AppleVis is being expanded to allow discussions about other operating systems and tech, but I think there should be a section about Linux as well. Since the new sections include Windows and Android, it seems only fair to include Linux too, to represent all the main non-Apple operating systems. Linux has multiple screen readers for its different interfaces, and even though GUI applications are often less accessible than on Mac and Windows and Orca has less features and capabilities than other screen readers, there are still plenty of accessible GUI applications, not to mention Emacs and the command line, which are extremely accessible with a few different screen readers. Braille is also supported in all of these environments, and works extremely well on the command line.

I understand that there are less blind Linux users than blind Windows and Android users, but I have definitely heard Linux mentioned a few times here. Also, part of the reason less blind people use Linux is probably that there are very few online resources about Linux from a blindness perspective, even less so than for Windows and Android, and having a Linux section on AppleVis might help more blind people learn about it and get help if they need it. Linux has its own advantages and disadvantages just like other operating systems, and I think it can be offer some unique benefits to blind users.

It's a catch 22 situation isn't it? Les blind people use Linux because there aren't many online resources, but presumably there aren't the resources because a lot of us don't use it. I've never used Linux myself, but I wouldn't mind learning about it. Thing is I don't want to install it on my computer because then I wouldn't have Windows presumably? Is that what that VMware thing is for though? Maybe I could install it on my laptop running Windows 11? I haven't got a spare laptop lying around. Can people install Linux without sighted help? Or do you have to get sighted help to install it? I've never got a straight answer about this from anyone. And what about raspberry pi.? I know a little bit about that, but for those who have got one, a forum to discuss this would be cool. I haven't got any idea of the benifits of Linux over Windows or the Mac. At least with the Mac, I can read about it here, and I know enough people to ask things. Linux I don't know anyone or anywhere to ask stuff. Understanding why someone would prefer Linux rather than Windows or the Mac would be nice. These aren't rhetorical questions, some answers would be cool, thanks.

Would love to have a forum to discuss this. From what little I have been able to find on the inter-webs, it is supposed to be a user-friendly, accessible desktop-like environment for Linux.

There are ten-thousand versions of Linux distributions, or flavors, or whatever you want to call them, most with a desktop environment. I use the Mate desktop (as in the caffeine loaded drink of Latin America) by way of Debian as my main OS.
If we end up with a Linux section, it might be interesting. Most of those discussions are on email lists right now.

I like the idea of adding a Linux forum at some point, likely when we get a sense of how the current pilot is going, so as to avoid expanding too rapidly.

I too have long wanted to explore Linux, and installed Ubuntu in a virtual machine on my Mac a few years ago. While Orca seemed generally usable and easy enough to learn according to its documentation, I for whatever reason had a hard time reliably navigating interfaces. Whether that was because there was a distribution or desktop environment that would've been better-optimized for Orca, the virtual machine was underpowered, I couldn't find many comprehensive resources for beginners, or a combination of all the above, I couldn't seem to get the hang of it and eventually stopped using it altogether.